Print Story Ask HuSi: Energy Consumption
Logic & Maths
By toxicfur (Mon Aug 14, 2006 at 09:53:19 PM EST) (all tags)
So I was scanning Scientific American during dinner tonight, and I came across a statistic that I've seen - in various guises - in lots of other places. Not surprisingly, the statistic was not footnoted, so I don't know where it was originally cited.

Inside, questions about Western Europe.

And, an unrelated photo.



Basically, the statistic states that the average American use twice as much energy as the average Western European. And ten times as much energy as the average person from China, etc.

I can understand why fat, lazy Americans would be hesitant to take on the lifestyle of the average Chinese, since many Chinese are poor and live based on subsistence.

But what is so different about Americans versus Western Europeans? Am I missing something crucial about how the statistic was calculated? Do Americans commute significantly more than Western Europeans? Does it have to do with the fact that much of our food is transported across the country in refrigerated trucks?

And what's the answer to get Americans to adopt an attitude that doesn't see energy conservation as a Bad Thing Takin' Away Our Rights?




Unrelated photo: Fenway Park taken from the top of the Green Monster, with my Virgin Mobile camera phone (works great as a phone, not so much as a camera).

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Ask HuSi: Energy Consumption | 99 comments (99 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
From my experience in Germany by cam (4.00 / 1) #1 Mon Aug 14, 2006 at 10:14:11 PM EST
oil is bloody expensive so people drive tomato soup cans instead of cars. I also noted that heating in Germany wasn't central heating. Each room had an electronic oil heater which turned on and off based on a timer as well as could be turned up when someone was in the room (ie bathroom and shower). Less wasteful than our heating and cooling the whole house to 68F.

I dont know about the US, but the Australian economy is called hot, heavy and wet. Meaning Australia uses more energy, water (and pollution) to produce one unit of GDP than most other nations. Another sign of inefficiency.

cam
Freedom, liberty, equity and an Australian Republic


a lot of .au is pretty marginal by clover kicker (2.00 / 0) #3 Mon Aug 14, 2006 at 10:30:53 PM EST
IIRC you couldn't support life, much less farm in some of those areas without massive inputs of water.

I expect aircon is a huge % of the .au power bill?

[ Parent ]

Biggest user of water is agriculture by cam (4.00 / 1) #8 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:27:51 AM EST
IIRC water for residential is about 8% of all utilisation. Australia can support a much larger population, but the rice and wheat industries will have to go do it. Also people will have to start living on the Murrumbidgee.

cam
Freedom, liberty, equity and an Australian Republic
[ Parent ]

The rice industry by ajf (4.00 / 4) #9 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:37:22 AM EST
It pisses me off when I see money wasted on ads telling people to save water by taking shorter showers and making sure their taps aren't dripping, when the rice industry alone uses more water than all the households in NSW. If you want to save water, stop growing rice in a fucking desert.

"I am not buying this jam, it's full of conservatives"
[ Parent ]

when cam first told me by MillMan (4.00 / 3) #11 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 03:20:22 AM EST
about growing rice there, I didn't believe him until I checked several sources to confirm. The mind boggles, to put it mildly.

Everybody still hates me in this city and I hate everybody.
[ Parent ]

IAWMillMan. by toxicfur (4.00 / 1) #16 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 07:16:14 AM EST
The mind boggles.

--
Continue to lean until you feel gravity threatening to discipline you for being stupid. - CRwM
[ Parent ]

CA by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #31 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:49:50 AM EST
Same exact thing happens in California.
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[ Parent ]

the difference is by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #87 Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 03:24:33 PM EST
in california, the rice isn't grown in the desert; it's grown in the region around the delta, which is a reasonable place for it.

If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.
[ Parent ]

rice, eh? by clover kicker (4.00 / 2) #15 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 07:02:14 AM EST
That's pretty fucked up.

Every year it seems there's a news story about massive brush fires in .au because of drought.

I saw something on Discovery about rerouting a big river thru the middle of a mountain for hydro and irrigation, opening up new areas for development.

.ca and .au have a lot in common, i.e. small populations clinging to the habitable fringes of a vast wilderness, but at least our wilderness is nice and wet.

[ Parent ]

Drought may have something to do with the bush by cam (4.00 / 1) #18 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 07:20:17 AM EST
fires, but the Eucalypt scrub is evergreen and drops leaf litter year round. My experience from the Blue Mountains was that once a hot westerly blew for a couple of days (from the western side of the mountains) it dried the mountains out and it was a bush fire candidate. Usually then an arsonist obliged or storms came through which threw lightning but not rain ..... and fire, fire, fire.

Australia has non-seasonal rainfall thanks to El-Nino so water patterns are more dubious than in say Europe or North America which does have seasonal falls. Oddly Toowoomba recently rejected a referendum on recycling/treating sewerage water. Other towns like Goulbourn which are on the Wollondilly River, but cant tap it as it is part of the Sydney catchment area are resorting to water tanks, roof trapment and recycling.

cam
Freedom, liberty, equity and an Australian Republic
[ Parent ]

When I was in Munich/Starnberg by ad hoc (2.00 / 0) #27 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:14:39 AM EST
I didn't see any A/C at all. Even at the office, we just opened the windows (which caused a bit of a problem as the Cottonwood¹ trees were ejaculating).

¹ May not have been Cottonwood, but the effect is the same.
--
Close friendships and a private room can offer most of the things love does.
[ Parent ]

Also by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #32 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:55:14 AM EST
Don't they usually use "on demand" water heaters there? (As opposed to keeping fifty gallons hot forever.)

For reasons I won't get into, my house had two water heaters. We recently ditch one, and I was amazed at the reduction in my gas bill.
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Depending on capacity and usage by bobdole (4.00 / 1) #36 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:08:40 PM EST
on demand vs reservoir heaters savings and benefits varies from household to household. Of course there are other "problems" like bacteria and so on...
-- The revolution will not be televised.
[ Parent ]

other "problems" by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #39 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:16:43 PM EST
Having had a water heater burst, I'm certainly leaning towards on demand next time.
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[ Parent ]

hehe by bobdole (2.00 / 0) #41 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:36:54 PM EST
sounds expensive :-D
-- The revolution will not be televised.
[ Parent ]

It was by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #44 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:16:08 PM EST
Especially since I was out of town, and my wife was stressed by unrelated things, resulting in the purchase of a water heater far larger than we needed from an unsrupulous salesman.
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I was thinking by bobdole (2.00 / 0) #79 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:45:59 PM EST
more in the terms of cleaning up than replacement. But size is absolutely a matter when it comes to tank water heaters. Too small and you'll be heating 24/7, too large and you'll be using a lot of energy to keep unnecessary water hot.
-- The revolution will not be televised.
[ Parent ]

quick unrefined answer by MillMan (4.00 / 1) #2 Mon Aug 14, 2006 at 10:25:13 PM EST
I believe most of it is transport energy due to our low density cities. Take a look at the following chart:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/research/11-621-MIE/2005023/tables/table1.htm

Note how Canada is similarly wasteful. Their cities are designed much like ours. All those transport-miles then get multiplied by our low mileage vehicles.

As far as transportation, I think ~10% of our oil use goes towards shipping goods. Certainly not trivial, but not the biggest component either.

Everybody still hates me in this city and I hate everybody.


Not just transportation by theantix (4.00 / 1) #4 Mon Aug 14, 2006 at 10:44:22 PM EST
US and CA heavily subsidize electrical energy production and distribution which leads to artificially low prices.  This in turn means that appliances such as dishwashers, washer/dryers, A/C, etc are all relatively cheaper so one could safely assume they are more prevalent.

Transportation is probably the larger factor though, for the reasons you said.
____________________________________
Everything you wanted to know about Kansas City, and more.
[ Parent ]

oh certainly by MillMan (2.00 / 0) #5 Mon Aug 14, 2006 at 10:50:12 PM EST
I just didn't go into home energy use. I know I've seen the numbers posted on theoildrum.com but I'm too lazy to look them up.

Everybody still hates me in this city and I hate everybody.
[ Parent ]

Thanks for the chart. by toxicfur (2.00 / 0) #17 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 07:20:10 AM EST
Those numbers are rather striking. Like aethucyn says below, though, I'd like to know how these numbers are calculated. Does it count all energy use, including energy intensive industries (of which there may be more in the US, since there's more room for them), and then divide the total by the number of people? It's more or less an idle question, since I'm sure if it was really important, I could figure it out on my own.
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Continue to lean until you feel gravity threatening to discipline you for being stupid. - CRwM
[ Parent ]

Part of it by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #6 Mon Aug 14, 2006 at 10:55:10 PM EST
Much of the population of the US is in places like the South and the Southwest, where air conditioning is virtually a requirement. On the other hand, most places in Europe can get by without it.
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the flip of that, though by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #88 Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 03:26:05 PM EST
is that it's far more important to heat a german home in february than a california one. and more expensive, too.


If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.
[ Parent ]

How do they calculate? by aethucyn (4.00 / 1) #7 Mon Aug 14, 2006 at 11:59:04 PM EST
Is this based upon total energy use/ number of people, or are they actually trying to seperate out personal energy use from business energy use? We use lots of flashing lights, giant malls which need to be climate controlled. I don't doubt that individually we use more energy, I just wonder how it breaks down.

As for conservation, I think those that are crying about it being an infringement on their rights are a small minority. I'd say most are either lazy, or just don't like being criticized. Tell somebody how wasteful they are, and they'll either argue rather lamely, or just look embarrassed and hope the subject gets changed.



How they calculate... by toxicfur (2.00 / 0) #19 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 07:28:14 AM EST
is one of the questions I have. It bugs me when I see statistics bandied about without a clear idea of how the data are gathered and how the results are calculated. I am assuming that they're counting total energy use - including industry, business, retail, and personal - and then calculating based on the number of people. However, I have no idea.

In terms of conservation, there are plenty of those who realize they should do more about reducing waste (I'm one of those), but there are also lots of people who get defensive when the talk turns to better fuel efficiency in cars, keeping AC or central heat at a less ideal temperature, etc.

There was this whole "What Would Jesus Drive?" thing a few years ago, where some wacko was trying to argue that Jesus would've been a conservationist. I heard several people argue that Jesus would've driven an SUV or a similarly large truck: He had a lot of people to transport, after all. It was a silly argument, to say the least, but it did show the attitudes of the people who engaged in it.
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Continue to lean until you feel gravity threatening to discipline you for being stupid. - CRwM
[ Parent ]

Transport by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #33 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:58:41 AM EST
SUV's would actually be pretty efficient per passenger if every seat were filled.
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Ha by hulver (4.00 / 2) #80 Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 01:55:05 AM EST
A mini can take 5 people. My car takes 7 comfortably, and it's smaller than an SUV.

Large SUV's have no purpose other than to stroke the egos of the owner.
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smart, pretty, sane. pick two - georgeha
[ Parent ]

Minis by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #82 Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 11:36:01 AM EST
Can you tell me wife that a mini can take five people. She won't let me buy one. :-(
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They can't really. by ambrosen (2.00 / 0) #86 Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 02:59:44 PM EST
The Mini was designed for four people. It weighs 600-700kg depending on specification.

The MINI is a pastiche of the former built as a premium 'small' car which weighs 1000-1100kg, a little more than some models of light estate car/station wagon. It's unsurprising that it's got plenty of space in it.

[ Parent ]

If it includes military energy usage by komet (4.00 / 1) #72 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 03:04:10 PM EST
that probably explains the discrepancy right there.

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<ni> komet: You are functionally illiterate as regards trashy erotica.
[ Parent ]

Nice picture of Fenway... by Metatone (4.00 / 3) #10 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:56:23 AM EST
Brings back some memories...

As for energy, others have covered a lot of it. It's worth noting that over the last 20? years a growing part of the population of the US has moved to areas where they use more energy than ever before (e.g. Arizona, for cooling and water supply.)

Fundamentally, as energy prices rise, you'd have to think much of Arizona will likely become increasingly uneconomic to live in. This probably applies to other areas of the country too. (Generally, heating seems to be more energy efficient than cooling at this time.)



from my experience: by BlueOregon (4.00 / 2) #12 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 03:57:20 AM EST

1. As mentioned above about lack of central heating (though not everywhere I've lived in Deutschlandia, etc.)

2. Lack of air conditioning in most homes/buildings. General tendency not to have multiple large fridges and freezers and the garage. Greater tendency to turn lights off, if one is not in the room.

3. Gas is more expensive (for driving), and there is the density and shorter-commute argument, even for those not living in a city. In most cities there is decent public transit, and there are decent train systems as well.

I don't know if these things can account for all of the cited gap, but they are general and generally observed lifestyle differences that would seem to account for some of it.

_
"The german quoting guy is a little bit out there." (fleece)


Higher population density, poorer... by jump the ladder (4.00 / 2) #13 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 06:21:00 AM EST
Less extreme weather.

This means that it is worth building a decent public transport system as ridership will justify it so less dependence on cars and a larger precentage of the population can't afford cars anyway.

There is less need for aircon and high output heating systems as the weather is milder on the whole.

Houses are smaller as land is more expensive and the people poorer so less area to be furnished or put more material stuff in.

Cars are smaller and more fuel efficient as petrol is very expensive. Plus smaller roads anyway.

Higher percentage of electricity generated by non-coal and oil burning piowerstations.

I'm pretty sure that USian population would rise up if forced to drive small 4 cylinder cars and live in the cramped rabbit hutches that us Europeans put up with :).



even I know that one by clover kicker (4.00 / 2) #14 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 06:58:07 AM EST
> And what's the answer to get Americans to adopt an
> attitude that doesn't see energy conservation as a
> Bad Thing Takin' Away Our Rights?

That's easy, you raise gasoline and natural gas and electricity prices to the same levels as they pay in Europe.

Hummer go bye-bye. (I think this is already happening?)

People would adjust their A/C thermostats.

In 5 years you'd see a huge shift in the cars people buy.

Over 15 years you'd see a massive investment in public transit.


My favorite hobby horse is changing the building code to require residential housing to be more energy efficient. The cost would be minimal, and you wouldn't see benefits for 10-20 years, but over time it would make a huuuuuuge difference.



The Hummer. by toxicfur (2.00 / 0) #23 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 09:27:16 AM EST
From what I understand, the largest Hummer is going out of production, but the two smaller ones (for some values of "small") are still being made. Since gas prices in the US have risen over the past couple of years, US auto manufacturers are complaining that they can't sell the high-profit SUVs the way they used to, but (see lm's comment about cars), I can't see that there's been a decent response from manufacturers to respond to the (changing, I hope) marketplace.

It seems to me that, while many USians as individuals see the need for change, industries are burying their proverbial heads in the sand and hoping all of this negative stuff just goes away, the way fads are wont to do.
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Continue to lean until you feel gravity threatening to discipline you for being stupid. - CRwM
[ Parent ]

American car industry by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #35 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:06:37 PM EST
Seems pretty doomed to me at the moment, unless they change attitude soon. (Fall will likely take decades, though.) Foreigners respond to these things much faster. (Around where I live, it seems like everyone is buying Mini Coopers and Priuses (Priusii?)
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Only in theory. by mrgoat (4.00 / 1) #30 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:42:09 AM EST
The thing the American people won't put up with though, is energy prices going up to what they pay in Europe. That's the real question: How do you get Americans to lose the sense of entitlement towards artificially cheap energy?

Years pass, things change, you end up living in Kansas. But the bag of dicks never leaves your side... - blixco
--top hat--
[ Parent ]

hey, I didn't say it was fun by clover kicker (2.00 / 0) #43 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:15:20 PM EST
> The thing the American people won't put up with
> though, is energy prices going up to what they pay
> in Europe.

Energy prices are rising. Eventually it's gonna happen, no individual nor company nor government can keep energy cheap.

> That's the real question: How do you get Americans
> to lose the sense of entitlement towards
> artificially cheap energy?

Years of bitch-slapping by the allmighty invisible hand?

[ Parent ]

Well then. by mrgoat (4.00 / 1) #47 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:32:07 PM EST
We're going to need a pre-emptive strike on the invisible hand of the market place. Missile solve everything!

Years pass, things change, you end up living in Kansas. But the bag of dicks never leaves your side... - blixco
--top hat--
[ Parent ]

Is it artificially cheap? by komet (4.00 / 1) #55 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:59:24 PM EST
Or is energy (especially fuel) in Europe artificially expensive?

Diesel fuel for cars and heating fuel are the same substance, yet one costs twice as much as the other. Is that not artificial pricing?

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<ni> komet: You are functionally illiterate as regards trashy erotica.
[ Parent ]

Ok, take out "artificially". by mrgoat (2.00 / 0) #57 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:20:12 PM EST
I guess I don't care to argue that part, so I'll concede the point. Make my question "How do you make americans lose the sense of entitlement to cheap energy?"

Years pass, things change, you end up living in Kansas. But the bag of dicks never leaves your side... - blixco
--top hat--
[ Parent ]

tax me harder, baby! by clover kicker (2.00 / 0) #58 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:22:17 PM EST
One huge difference is taxes.

<internet expert>I believe</internet expert> in Canuckistan that various governments spend more $$$ on roads than the tax revenue on gasoline/diesel. So if they increased gas taxes, maybe my income taxes could be lowered or something.

Gas taxes in the US are much lower than .ca so I can't imagine they pay the full cost of the highway system. I could easily devil's advocate that your income tax is artificially lowering gas prices.

Dunno how European gas revenues compare to European highway infrastructure costs.

[ Parent ]

Taxes on fuel by jump the ladder (4.00 / 2) #74 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 05:03:09 PM EST
Are way more than road building/maintenence costs in the UK. Suspect it's the same in the rest of Europe.


[ Parent ]

Way more? by ambrosen (2.00 / 0) #85 Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 02:49:18 PM EST
I suspect you've been reading the wrong propaganda.

[ Parent ]

Yes, the Chancellor's propaganda by jump the ladder (2.00 / 0) #91 Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 06:18:19 PM EST
£23.5 bn on fuel duty for 2005-6 in his Budget Report.

£5.7 bn  for 2005-06 on Transport which also includes railways and London transport.

 

[ Parent ]

I overstated my case. by ambrosen (2.00 / 0) #92 Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 07:33:32 PM EST
Although DfT figures say £5.4 billion of expenditure on roads in 2003-4.

Oh, and £1 billion of criminal justice expenditure (not policing, by my reading of it) on motoring offences.

[ Parent ]

Still way more by jump the ladder (2.00 / 0) #93 Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 05:05:26 AM EST
I do think the motorist gets a raw deal in the UK, they could at least maintain the existing roads properly if they don't want to build new ones or invest in alternative transport.

[ Parent ]

I don't think they get a raw deal. by ambrosen (2.00 / 0) #96 Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 08:57:12 AM EST
But the one who I saw upside down on the A5 yesterday gave themself a raw deal.

There was a figure I picked up while checking out those numbers which stated £8 billion of direct costs incurred due to injuries and deaths in motor vehicle collisions, but I didn't find a source for them.

And I definitely don't find the existing roads to be poorly maintained in this country. I've just been driving around Ireland for the past few days. That's poor roads. Fuel duty is a touch lower there (€1.20/l for petrol), but vehicle excise duty is €300 p/a.

[ Parent ]

AC by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #34 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:03:57 PM EST
It's nice in theory to say "people should turn down their AC", and yes, it'd save energy if people left them at 80 instead of 72, but the root of the problem is plunking a house down where it can hit 110 in the summer.

Building codes might help, but you've got the issue of all the older homes...just a few months ago I had all the siding on my house ripped off and insulation put in. Like most older California homes, it had pretty much no insulation. I'm still not done...I have single-paned windows to replace. So even if codes required all this tomorrow, it'd take decades for it to reach the majority of existing houses.
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I have only mild tolerance for the AC argument by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #37 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:10:11 PM EST

In Greece, it often hits 110 in the Summer - sometimes 120.

Ditto Spain.

Ditto the south of Italy.

Ditto Turkey.

Ditto north Africa.

Ditto numerous islands in "the Med".

Ditto Mexico, now I come to think of it.

They tend not to use AC.


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I have issues with the AC argument as well. by toxicfur (4.00 / 1) #40 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:19:09 PM EST
After all, AC is a new development in energy usage, and people survived in places that reach high temperatures long before the invention of central climate control devices.

Even when I was growing up in the South, most of the houses we lived in did not have central AC - at most, we'd have a window unit in one room, which we'd turn off when we left that room. Currently, ana and I have the same system, though we've used our window unit AC for only a few days this summer (when day temps were in the upper 90s F and night temps only down to 80F). Even then, we would have been okay without it - just uncomfortable.

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Continue to lean until you feel gravity threatening to discipline you for being stupid. - CRwM
[ Parent ]

I think that's the difference by yicky yacky (4.00 / 2) #42 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:50:03 PM EST

AC is, broadly speaking, a "comfort" item; a luxury. Heating is, broadly speaking, crucial; a necessity.

This pigeon-holing is arbitrary and not entirely concrete, of course, and those in hotter climates may rightly have stronger objections to the division, but - in your own shaded home with a reasonable water supply (which is, after all, the generalisation being discussed) - it is almost impossible to die from the heat, whereas it is all too easy to die from the cold. ucblockhead's point has some validity, though, in that those who choose to live ostensibly in the desert require high levels of support from both directions, as well as needing water.


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Dying by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #63 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:37:22 PM EST
I'm mostly recalling the huge number of deaths in France from that heat wave that brought temperatures that my home town sees at least one two week period every year. My suspicion has been that the difference is that the old-folks homes around here all have AC.
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Not that by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #64 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:37:50 PM EST
There isn't a lot of validity to the idea that it's mostly comfort.
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Maybe by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #61 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:35:00 PM EST
I know people lived in Phoenix before AC, but how many? It was AC that made it one of the fastest growing cities in the US
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yes. by aphrael (4.00 / 1) #89 Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 03:28:46 PM EST
arguably, though, pheonix shouldn't have that many people, and the people who are making the choice to live there need to have their head examined.


If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.
[ Parent ]

think loooong term, baby by clover kicker (4.00 / 1) #46 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:32:00 PM EST
> It's nice in theory to say "people should turn
> down their AC", and yes, it'd save energy if
> people left them at 80 instead of 72,

As electricity becomes more expensive, people will decide on their own to turn down the AC.

> but the root
> of the problem is plunking a house down where it
> can hit 110 in the summer.

Again, eventually people thinking about relocating to Arizona will consider the high cost of cooling their homes before they pull up stakes and move.

> Building codes might help, but you've got the
> issue of all the older homes
> ...
> So even if codes required all this tomorrow,
> it'd take decades for it to reach the majority
> of existing houses.

Decades for sure.

But right now, not too far away from you, someone is building a huge subdivision of new houses with zero thought of energy consumption. Those houses are going to waste energy for 50, 75, maybe 100 years.

We gotta stop digging ourselves in deeper.

At least in Canuckistan, we could make big energy savings for a small expense at construction time, it's fucking insane that we're not doing better. You wouldn't believe the difference well-placed, high quality windows will make, even on a -40 degree day. (Cold days are almost always clear and sunny)

[ Parent ]

I believe it by ucblockhead (4.00 / 2) #50 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:39:15 PM EST
I've been slowly replacing windows and adding insulation in my own house, so I have a real good idea of the cost savings.
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watching home improvement shows on TV by clover kicker (2.00 / 0) #53 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:43:33 PM EST
When I watch home improvement shows on TV, I can't believe the way you build stuff in warm climates. Up here, when you drive back roads and look at the tar paper shacks... those are insulated a lot better than seems to be the norm in California.

I also can't imagine living anywhere without a full basement, but obviously people do.

[ Parent ]

It's changed by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #60 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:32:01 PM EST
Watching them add-on to the house, I've got to see the difference between the way things are built now vs. the way they were thirty years ago. Modern construction uses lots of insulation and double-paned windows for everything. Thirty years ago, everything was single-paned and no insulation.

I wish I had a basement, but I suspect there are very good reasons they don't have them here. For one, I need a sump-pump just to keep my small crawl-space for flooding and I know that the tear-down behind me has a root-cellar that floods every winter. I'm very jealous at the amount of storage people elsewhere have.
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basement by clover kicker (2.00 / 0) #65 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:39:31 PM EST
You have to landscape intelligently with basements, make sure the water flows away from the house. If not, you'll soon notice :)

My house is 30+ years old with mostly original single-pane windows. I'm getting tired of fucking around with storm windows every fall and spring, I think next year I'm ordering a bunch of new windows.

[ Parent ]

Population density, as mentioned, is big by lm (4.00 / 1) #20 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 08:25:54 AM EST
One of the larger consequences of having relatively low density is having larger houses. Everyone I've talked to from Europe that has come to the states is astonished at the size of the homes. (Keep in mind this is slanted towards eastern Europeans.) Larger homes take more to heat and cool.

Then, as others have mentioned, there is the preference for large cars in the states vs. a preference for small cars in Europe. I've started doing research to by a new car and I'm astonished at how many cars in the ``small car'' category get less than 30mpg and have as much space as my mid-sized Passat from last decade.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic


Cars expanding by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #38 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 12:13:20 PM EST
When I was in college, I had an old '81 Honda Accord. Later, I bought an '88 Accord, which I still have. My wife got a Toyota Camry in '96. Camries are pretty much the same class as Accords. What's interesting is that each of those cars was substantially bigger than the last. I test drove a few Accords when my wife got the Camry, and they wer e almost the exact same size. So the "same" model in '81 was far smaller than the '96 version.

One of the oddities is that the increased size doesn't seem to have gone anywhere. The trunk on my car, which is substantially smaller, holds more than my wife's Camry. The older "boxey" design was more efficient I think.

I've always been astonished by how little car buyers appear to care about MPG.
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[ Parent ]

The Fenway! by blixco (4.00 / 1) #21 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 08:54:48 AM EST
I miss Boston so much during baseball season, I could cry.

In re: energy, I really don't know.  Transmission loss (the cost of transporting energy or goods) is probably pretty high, but we're also built aroud limitless supply thinking.

I've been chatting with the wife about changing the house to DC power.  Making our own wind generator and buying solar panels (the city would give us huge cash to do so, thus meaning it would cot us only about $12k), running propane appliances and getting rid of non-esential services.

I wonder what that would be like?
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Taken out of context I must seem so strange - Ani DiFranco


challenging I bet. by garlic (4.00 / 1) #29 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:26:38 AM EST
but once you got it working, very satisfying. You could be like those guys who walk around saying "I don't own a TV", "I don't get my power from Enron".

[ Parent ]

I dunno, by blixco (4.00 / 2) #54 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:55:51 PM EST
I think it would be more in the "I run linux at home on my toaster" brags.
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Taken out of context I must seem so strange - Ani DiFranco
[ Parent ]

cool photo by Kellnerin (4.00 / 1) #22 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 09:22:01 AM EST
It's not just that it's low-res and pixellated, it sorta looks like digital pointillism. Virgin Mobile does Seurat, I like it.

I don't have anything more to add about the energy thing, except that I don't think it's fair for us not to claim business/industrial usage as part of our per capita consumption -- all that feeds into the lifestyle that we partake of and enjoy. I was bitching to my German friend about the heat a couple weeks ago, and she said "Yeah, it's like that here, only we don't DO a/c. Not in homes, not in office buildings, i.e. big glass-and-concrete boxes. For about six weeks out of the year, it's a bad scene." Here, if you have no a/c in your apartment on a hot day, at least you have the option of visiting a frigid movie theater, supermarket, etc. While that may be more efficient than cooling each individual home, it also uses a lot more energy than not cooling anything, and that's just one area of our consumption.

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Do not misuse.


I agree about industry energy consumption... by toxicfur (2.00 / 0) #24 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 09:33:46 AM EST
as counting toward the entire gap. The numbers I think I'd find more useful is to have these numbers broken down by a) personal; b) service industries; c) transportation; and d) manufacturing. I have this suspicion that telling people to set their thermostats at a particular place or to turn off lights that aren't in use will certainly help, but that it's a drop in the bucket compared to the energy used by other sectors. Unless the country as a whole is willing to make substantial changes, the gap will remain remarkably large. But this is all conjecture, since I don't have numbers that break energy consumption down beyond "average."

Re: The photo. Not only is the picture quality, er, interesting, but I had no idea what I was actually taking a picture of. It was bright enough outside that the sun washed out the little screen on my phone, so I just pointed in a likely direction and poked the button. I was actually a bit surprised it came out as well as it did.
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Continue to lean until you feel gravity threatening to discipline you for being stupid. - CRwM
[ Parent ]

I've read a lot and the fact is by jump the ladder (4.00 / 2) #25 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 09:53:43 AM EST
That basically resources like land, oil, metal, wood etc have historically being in short supply in W. Europe (even in 18th C the UK was running short of Oak for its sailing ships hence one of the reasons for colonising North America!) compared to the US that our infrastructure is set up to cope with this. We don't have the vast houses, suburbs, malls or freeways that you need to power.

The US has to make a much larger change than Europe as it's civilasation in much more energy and resource intensive.

[ Parent ]

Tend Your Own Toster. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 2) #26 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 09:55:51 AM EST
I'm no expert on the topic, but this amateur's quick glace at the 2005 Energy Report from the Department of Energy tells me that Americans' three biggest areas of energy expenditure are petroleum, natural gas, and "losses" (defined by the DOE as energy lost in the process of refining, transporting, or using energy resources).

Interestingly, according to the DOE, the civilian sector's greatest expenditure of energy is not in petroleum/transportation use, but "losses." If we want to cut down on energy use as individuals, the decision to drive a Hummer or a Cooper Mini might make less of an impact than the decision to make one's home more energy efficient. Better insulation, more energy efficient appliances, fewer appliances, fewer and more efficient lights; a universal effort to make every American home more fuel efficient would, I think, accomplish more to save fuel resources than trying to price SUV's out of the hands of individuals poorer individuals.

Which is a shame because I do hate SUVs.




Tell that to the Landmarks Commission by ad hoc (4.00 / 2) #28 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 10:19:21 AM EST
Something odd by sasquatchan (4.00 / 2) #45 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:24:01 PM EST
I don't know if I've seen it in this discussion.. Talk about better cars, more insulation, fancier appliances etc. Maybe it is different in Europe, but here, there is a premium you pay for "more efficient" stuff, be it your clothes washer (recall someone's diary about front loaders from a few weeks back), a hybrid car, on-demand water heaters (ucb, earlier here) etc.

You pay a big premium for such items. The cost/benefit for some of those items is still being decided. Consumer Reports says hybrids cost enough extra that it's 5+ years before you break even on gas usage. If a standard clothes washer is $200, how much in water/power do you have to save to justify the $1000 front-loader ? How long will it take to break the difference, provided the machine lasts that long. If I can buy a cheapo, small water heater, installed, for say $300, why pay upwards of $2-3k for the flash-heater ?

Now, some of those numbers are off the cuff, some from talking to plumber friend, etc. But the point is, being environmentally/energy conscious is now a luxury pursuit. Something the wealthy can afford to do, but not the hoi polloi.

Better, faster, cheaper, and environmentally friendly, gotta pick at least the last two this time if you want people to change.



That's a really good point. by toxicfur (4.00 / 1) #48 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:35:28 PM EST
It is difficult for the majority of people to even consider something like environmental friendliness if they're just scraping by - that's why, for instance, I drove a 1987 Chevy Blazer that got about 10-12 MPG for a couple of years, and why I now drive a Saturn Ion instead of a Prius.

The older I get, the more I realize there just aren't any easy answers, and the vast shift in values, infrastructure, government and industry that will have to take place to show any substantive changes isn't going to happen overnight - or even in a couple of decades. Add to that the notion that what was once considered "luxury" is now seen as "necessity" (thanks to the relative cheapness of gadgets and services and, of course, the advertising industry) and the problems become even stickier.
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Continue to lean until you feel gravity threatening to discipline you for being stupid. - CRwM
[ Parent ]

Claptrap by yicky yacky (4.00 / 2) #49 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:35:39 PM EST

Wha'choo talking 'bout, 'Quatchan?

"Hybrid"? There are normal cars over here with twice as much fuel efficiency as seems to be standard in America.

Hyper-efficient stuff did (and perhaps still slightly does) cost a bit more to purchase, but a.) the differences have dropped over time and b.) The cost of energy is such that they pay for themselves fairly quickly. On top of the cost of energy, I think the "social conscience" is somewhat different, too. Over here, appliances come with an efficieny rating (A = hyper-efficient; H = Crap); I've heard people openly bragging about how their new kit was all classified "A" and, conversely, castigating others for buying even 'E'-grade kit. These acts were not performed by hippies, or the rich; but middle-of-the-road, everyday folk.

Most of your comment reads as a generalized, lazy, and not particularly informed excuse for not bothering: "Ho hom; don't blame us; we're just the consumers" ...


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This may, I think, by toxicfur (4.00 / 1) #52 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:40:54 PM EST
be a big part of the difference between Western Europe and the US. People in the US see environmental friendliness ratings as so much neo-hippie, liberal nonsense. People want stuff that's powerful and cheap - and, if it's not too much trouble or not too expensive, stuff that lasts. The energy consumption of the product just doesn't figure into most people's buying patterns (at least, from what I can see), so here it does seem to be an elitist, classist sort of an idea.

Perhaps if energy was signficantly more expensive, then attitudes would change, but I don't know - these are pretty deeply ingrained attitudes, and the changes are going to be incremental at best, at least until there's some sort of a large-scale crisis.
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Continue to lean until you feel gravity threatening to discipline you for being stupid. - CRwM
[ Parent ]

I think by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #56 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:02:28 PM EST

that these are mostly all corollaries to mr goat's earlier point. If you have (artificially?) cheap energy, you are effectively insulated from the effects of consumption.

Note that I'm not saying that "we" (Western Europeans) have got it right - our energy costs (especially fuel) are arguably "artificially high" owing to taxation - but it's fascinating when North Americans make arguments regarding the ineffable nature of automobile fuel efficiency when vastly more efficient, equally economic, equally fast, high-quality cars blatantly already exist and, when actually analysed, the argument comes down to viewing not-particularly-thoughtfully-designed, four-litre and twenty-foot cars as "necessary" when they are nothing of the kind.


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I think it's more than that by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #68 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:42:42 PM EST
There's a lot of inertia. If everyone drives SUVs, little microcars are less attractive than if everyone drives little microcars. It's hard to be the first for very logical reasons. (I.e. little microcars are much less safe on roads where everyone else drives an SUV.)
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I think of it as cheap by sasquatchan (2.00 / 0) #62 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:35:28 PM EST
hah.

But, really, I'd buy A grade kit if it were reasonably priced. But it's economics.

If A grade kit costs $A, and E grade kit costs $E, and it costs an additional $X/year to run E (over A), for what year Y does A = E + X*Y ?

If Y > 5, good luck getting folks to move to A, unless A and E or (A - E) are "reasonably" small values (tens of dollars)

I'm dubious about all the talk of subsidized this or that. I'll need to read the quarterly publication about my water, but subsidized power ?  Some may get power from the TVA or other gov't entitity, but my power is provided by a private company. They are being deregulated, but in the past, power companies were the best investment for pensioners. The companies were allowed to charge rates that gave them a guaranteed profit (not a large amount, but %10-15). Part of those profits were required to be paid as dividends. Thus, the stock never fluxuated wildly in value, and paid a known dividend. Thus, pensioners/retirees would invest in them for a decent cash return (dividends as income).

Now, if you want to quibble about tax breaks, equipment deregulation etc "silently" subsidizing power, I'd say those laws are pretty much universally applied to other businesses as well.

I say this all as a homeowner who will need a new car in the future, and would love a family car that gets over 30 MPG. Would like to put in a high efficiency heat pump, do a lot of things. But the front-end costs for many of those options are prohibitive, or unreasonable.


[ Parent ]

Yeah by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #66 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:40:24 PM EST
There were 40-50 mpg cars sold in the US in the eighties, but they flopped on the market.

Hell, most of us could be riding motorcycles 90% of the time.
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well... by garlic (4.00 / 2) #75 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 06:31:47 PM EST
the average bike gets better mileage than the average car in the US, but not really by a lot. My 600 CC cruiser style bike (which counts as a small bike, unable to top 90 mph) gets about 50 MPG. As far as I can tell, bikes average around 40 MPG.

[ Parent ]

Sadly by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #77 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 07:07:21 PM EST
40 mpg is probably more than double the average mileage these days.
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And that... by toxicfur (4.00 / 1) #78 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 08:37:14 PM EST
is why I want a motorcycle. Well, the mileage and the fact that I get to legitimately wear black leather.
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Continue to lean until you feel gravity threatening to discipline you for being stupid. - CRwM
[ Parent ]

that's somewhat horrifying. by aphrael (2.00 / 0) #90 Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 03:33:12 PM EST
water is dirt cheap in North America by clover kicker (4.00 / 1) #51 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 01:39:35 PM EST
The front-loader washer saves a bunch of water, which is essentially free in North America. Here your only savings is that you don't have to heat as much water.

If people in big NA cities paid the true cost of their water, you'd see a lot more front-loaders.

Also, our living spaces are biiiig. I've got more wasted space in my basement then most Brits have to live in, a big-ass water tank or a bulky top-load washer doesn't inconvenience me at all.

[ Parent ]

Water by ucblockhead (4.00 / 1) #69 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:43:23 PM EST
Water's pretty expensive in California...if you're not a farmer.
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what is expensive, though? let's do a survey by clover kicker (2.00 / 0) #71 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:49:30 PM EST
I live in backwoods Atlantic Canada. I've got a well, water is essentially free.

Anyone from other parts of the world know off-hand what they pay for water?

[ Parent ]

good discussion by clover kicker (4.00 / 1) #59 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:24:07 PM EST
Seems a shame it'll be deleted since it's in the hole.



I almost put it on the diary page. by toxicfur (4.00 / 1) #67 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:40:45 PM EST
And decided to leave it in the hole. It really is a great discussion, though, so perhaps I'll ask an editor if it would be okay to move it to the diary page.
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Continue to lean until you feel gravity threatening to discipline you for being stupid. - CRwM
[ Parent ]

Done. by ana (4.00 / 2) #70 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 02:48:37 PM EST
:-D

Can you introspect out loud? --CRwM
[ Parent ]

kiss up by sasquatchan (2.00 / 0) #73 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 03:38:44 PM EST
;)

[ Parent ]

feature request by garlic (2.00 / 0) #76 Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 06:36:40 PM EST
it'd be nice to be able to vote any story, anywhere up or down a level, with top being the front page, and bottom being deleted.

[ Parent ]

Energy efficiency by jimgon (4.00 / 1) #81 Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 08:38:51 AM EST
If you want to seriously cut down on your energy usage then there's a few things you can do to decrease it drastically with out changing your lifestyle that much.

Unplug your home electronics when not in use.  Each draws power and sits in a standby mode all day.  It's a huges waste.  So unplug them. 

Use a fuel efficient vehicle.  Hybrids are currently best. 

Oh yeah, and don't use your dishwasher for anything but a drying rack. 



Dishwashers? by ambrosen (4.00 / 1) #83 Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 02:14:58 PM EST
At just over 1kWh per cycle, that sounds pretty reasonable. It's roughly enough energy to heat 30 litres of water by 30 degrees (Celsius). Given that the average person washing up use 63 litres to match the equivalent of 1 dishwasher cycle (source: Waterwise, the UK government's water conservation agency), it's fair to say that dishwashers are over twice as efficient in terms of energy consumed in the house, or the same efficiency in global terms if you have gas fired water heating and a dishwasher using electrical heating (the norm in the UK. Also, electricity consumption in the UK emits approximately twice the CO₂ per kWh as gas consumption).

[ Parent ]

Just... by ana (4.00 / 1) #84 Wed Aug 16, 2006 at 02:47:08 PM EST
run it when it's full.

I used to think I was doing this, but then toxicfur came to live with me. The deal when she was growing up was that anything that didn't fit in the dishwasher had to be washed by hand. This proved a very powerful incentive for an adolescent to learn to pack more stuff than will physically fit into a dishwasher. I'm constantly astonished.

Can you introspect out loud? --CRwM
[ Parent ]

It's unnecessary by jimgon (2.00 / 0) #94 Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 08:39:40 AM EST
The extra energy consumption is unnecessary.  It takes thirty minutes or less to hand wash dishes. 

[ Parent ]

Good point. by ambrosen (4.00 / 2) #95 Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 08:47:17 AM EST
I was saying that hand washing is likely to consume more energy.

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Depends by jimgon (2.00 / 0) #97 Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 07:50:07 AM EST
How much hotwater do you need to hand-wash?  If you fill a basin with two gallons of warm water and rinse in cold?

[ Parent ]

If you do that, though, by toxicfur (2.00 / 0) #98 Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 08:33:36 AM EST
at least by restaurant standards, you aren't adequately cleaning the dishes. The water, both for washing and rinsing, needs to be very warm, and, if the dishes are sitting in the sink for very long, a stream of water should be run so that the water doesn't stagnate. Unfortunately, it's been too long since I've studied the ServSafe stuff, so I don't remember actual temperatures. I do have to say that I feel much more comfortable about the dishwasher's ability to kill evil bacteria than my own.
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Continue to lean until you feel gravity threatening to discipline you for being stupid. - CRwM
[ Parent ]

Americans are weak by jimgon (2.00 / 0) #99 Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 09:43:11 AM EST
We live in an overly anti-sceptic environment.  It's a wonder that we live through the winter anymore.

[ Parent ]

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